[Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis

Tue Nov 4 21:51:57 UTC 2014

The leaders, maybe, but not necessarily the parishes, have swung rightward.
On Nov 4, 2014 3:31 PM, "Lynn Ronkainen" <ichthys89 at comcast.net> wrote:

> It interests me that in 50 years (since the settling after V2Council) the
> US RC has become so conservative and rule bound again... where are the
> Berrigans+???   Their conservatism has made them bold (in re the two
> bishops you cite, Jay), IMO, of course.
>
> L
>
> website: www.ichthysdesigns.com
>
> When I stand before God at the end of my life I would hope that I have not
> a single bit of talent left and could say, "I used everything You gave me."
> attributed to Erma Bombeck
>
> Thomas Merton writes, “People may spend their whole lives climbing the
> ladder of success only to find, once they reach the top, that the ladder is
> leaning against the wrong wall.”
>
> "What you seek is seeking you." - Rumi
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Jay Weigel" <jay.weigel at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 9:15 AM
> To: <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
> Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
>
>  The deal breaker for me would be that Francis hasn't fired some of the
>> bishops in this country who are openly defiant of him...Burke of St.
>> Louis(?) and Morlino of my home town of Madison, WI being two of the
>> bigger
>> offenders. Burke was recently whining that he'd been "demoted" but he's
>> still running his mouth. Morlino has been one who's refused to baptize the
>> children of gay couples, in defiance of the pope.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 7:26 AM, ROGER STOKES <
>> roger.stokes65 at btinternet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  The deal breaker for me were two actions by Benedict XVI.  One was the
>>> forming of the Ordinariate for former Anglicans, starting in England but
>>> then extending to other countries as well. I know some people who chose
>>> to
>>> go to the Ordinariate and some who opted to enter the normal diocesan
>>> structure, as has been possible for many years.  I respect them as they
>>> believed that was right for their continuing spiritual journey, and some
>>> of
>>> those who had been clergy are now RC priests, whether they are married or
>>> not.  It always seemed to me as if those entering the Ordinariate wanted
>>> to
>>> remain traditional Anglicans. Incidentally the number of current members
>>> of
>>> the Ordinariate is not clear - what is that they are short of money and
>>> have a remarkably high number of priests for the number of laity they
>>> have.
>>>
>>> The other part of the deal breaker was the approval of the new "English"
>>> translation of the Missal.  I put "English" in quotes because it
>>> certainly
>>> is not English as spoken, I believe anywhere in the world. There were
>>> some
>>> deficiencies in the former translation - the Opening Prayers (Collects)
>>> being particularly short in gravitas and meaning.  A series of articles
>>> in
>>> The Tablet pointed that out, and how more uplifting translations of the
>>> Latin into good English were possible.  What is now offered is clunky
>>> and,
>>> as many will admit privately, not something that flows, taking the
>>> faithful
>>> with it as good liturgy should.
>>>
>>> Of course you can add to that the effect of historic child abuse and how
>>> the hierarchy have sought to protect the Church's reputation, something
>>> which has contributed to most of Joan's relatives no longer being
>>> practicing Catholics.
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>  From: Sally Davies <sally.davies at gmail.com>
>>> To: "magdalen at herberthouse.org" <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2014 5:51 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
>>>
>>>
>>> Which in itself sounds like a deal breaker for ever joining the RC,
>>> regardless of where the Pontiff may be on the spectrum of conservative
>>> religious organisation.
>>>
>>> I simply cannot understand how Christ's Representative on Earth can adopt
>>> (or be afforded) a style of leadership that is so radically at odds with
>>> Christ's own life and teaching in earthly life, and still have any
>>> credibility.
>>>
>>> If there's anything attractive about the current Pope (and for me there
>>> is)
>>> it would be in his adoption of a more simple and Christ like approach to
>>> people, relationships and problems. I hope he's not going to order anyone
>>> to jump.
>>>
>>> Given the pain we've been through in our own Communion, and still go
>>> through, I would not wish that on any other church. Lately I've been
>>> reading some sermons from Chris Chivers, who has interesting things to
>>> say
>>> about how we choose to be church; including the implications of our
>>> becoming preoccupied with our own self-understanding as Christians or as
>>> Church.
>>>
>>> He says it results in a closing-in mindset which all too easily becomes
>>> closing-down - literally. One of the sermons is a meditation on a
>>> painting,
>>> "The Baptism of Christ" by Hans Feibusch, which is in the Baptistry at
>>> Chichester Cathedral. It's well worth taking the time to study this
>>> painting, which is worth several thousand words about the Church, the
>>> Kingdom, and the Great Commission:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%22The_Baptism_
>>> of_Christ%22_by_Hans_Feibusch_within_Chichester_Cathedral_-_
>>> geograph.org.uk_-_1141190.jpg
>>>
>>> Sally D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, 4 November 2014, ROGER STOKES <roger.stokes65 at btinternet.com
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > What these traditionalists forget is that the Pope's power is >
>>> unfettered.
>>> > Canon Law says he can do what he likes and that he has universal
>>> > jurisdiction.  If he says "jump" the correct response is "how high?" >
>>> not
>>> > "why?" or "I don't want to".
>>> >
>>> > Roger
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ________________________________
>>> >  From: Scott Knitter <scottknitter at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
>>> > To: "Magdalen at herberthouse.org <javascript:;>" <
>>> magdalen at herberthouse.org
>>> > <javascript:;>>
>>> > Sent: Monday, November 3, 2014 2:56 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:27 AM, Roy Murphy <roy.murphy at gmail.com
>>> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> > > "It's almost as if the Catholic Church was recently baptized in a vat
>>> of
>>> > > irony: so-called traditionalists--the same people who insisted that
>>> > liberals
>>> > > fall in line behind John Paul II and Benedict XVI--are petulantly
>>> calling
>>> > > for schism and for bucking Church hierarchy. What makes it even more
>>> > > absurd: Francis isn't all that liberal."
>>> >
>>> > When the traditionalists were fluttering their eyelids each of the
>>> > many times they solemnly referred to "The Holy Father," I remember
>>> > wondering whether they would still do so for another pope who might
>>> > have a different approach. Sure enough, although they should fall in
>>> > line and show him the same deference, now it's a different story.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Scott R. Knitter
>>> > Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
>>> >
>>>
>>>