[Magdalen] Exorcism

[Lesley de Voil]

I am probably not going to do him justice, but John Hick, philosopher thinks of evil as the complete absence of love. It's human nature to reify this absence  as a thing or a person, but that  is only our way of explaining "it."
Regards
Lesley de Voil

-----Original Message-----
From: "James Oppenheimer-Crawford" <oppenheimerjw at gmail.com>
Sent: ‎11/‎12/‎2015 12:05
To: "Magdalen at herberthouse.org" <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Exorcism

It is not a simple matter, I am sure.  After all, there are a few serious
accounts of people who have reports that sound like there must surely be
some kind of malevolent presence there.

I don't discount those stories, but when I consider the theology of such a
thing, it makes me unsure of it all, since it seems incomprehensible that
the God I have learned to worship in this faith would ever (could ever)
create such terrible things.  Whatever they are, they too are God's
creatures, unless someone is suggesting that there are a pantheon of Gods,
or which ours is not the only one. I think the Gnostics believed that there
are other deities.

I am drawn to the conclusion that even if there were more than one God (and
I could not imagine how that could be, but I digress), it seems one must be
the primary God.  If so, then we still fold back to that question, how
could god create malevolent spirits or entities?  The evil one is not
consistently portrayed; he just kind of shows up as a literary device at
times, and when he does show up, he appears to look and act the part of
whatever device is needed at that moment in that particular story. And he
doesn't really show up very often in any case.

I won't say I even disagree with reports of malevolent spirits, but the
theology doesn't seem to show how this can "work" if we believe in a God
who is love, justice and mercy. It seems to me that belief in such things
might constitute disrespecting God's goodness, if we assume God creates
evil entities whose purpose is evil to the core.

So, as another literary device once put it, "Is a puzzlement!"

James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
*“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Clarissa Canning <canplum at gmail.com> wrote:

> I had a conversation about exorcism with a former Canadian Bishop.  He said
> it is a ministry one really has to contemplate to do.  He had someone come
> asking to do something in a trailer home. The little boy was being bothered
> by an uncomfortable spirit.  He said always take a witness. They prayed
> thru the home using Holy water & read out a funeral service for a child in
> their child's room.  Things went back to normal after this.  (It was told
> to them that a child had died in the home under bad circumstances
> previously.)
>    The other story was an exorcism for a man. He took amother priest as a
> witness.  he called out the demons. when they reacted  they felt it and had
> to keep praying at times it was stronger like wrestling.  They evil spirits
> left. after a few hours.   He said they hoped not to do this ministry too
> often it is disconcerting.
>
>
> On Dec 10, 2015 2:24 AM, "James Oppenheimer-Crawford" <
> oppenheimerjw at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, I have certainly experienced real palpable evil.  Some people are
> so
> > far gone beyond the act of merely failing to weigh choices correctly that
> > one senses almost a visceral dread of the stuff these people come up
> with.
> > Yes indeed, we are capable of incredible depths of depravity all by
> > ourselves.  We don't need help going there, sad to say.
> >
> >
> >
> > James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
> > *“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
> > except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 7:57 AM, Sally Davies <sally.davies at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Me too, Arthur.
> > >
> > > It's also interesting that in my environment of Africa, few people
> inside
> > > the churches or even outside them are inclined to question the
> > > independent existence of evil and of evil entities. It doesn't sit
> > > comfortably with rationality but in this part of the world the
> > supernatural
> > > and the natural are not separated to the same extent as in the
> "rational"
> > > West.
> > >
> > > I don't understand it, but there again I don't understand most of
> Reality
> > > and that's OK.
> > >
> > > My main problem with all of this is not so much philosophy or theodicy
> > but
> > > psychology. I'm a devotee and servant of the human brain in all its
> > > miraculous strangeness, including its ability to connect with other
> > brains
> > > in ways that aren't obvious to the five senses or easily explained.
> > >
> > > It so aggravating when phenomena that are much more elegantly explained
> > by
> > > recourse to these lesser known psycho-social competencies and
> > > vulnerabilities, are ascribed to either God or the Devil.
> > >
> > > I don't mean to imply that this leaves us with a "Satan of the gaps".
> To
> > my
> > > mind, one of Satan's cleverest tricks is to get us searching for
> Hannibal
> > > Lector when someone like Donald Trump is a much more worthy candidate.
> > He's
> > > convinced a lot of people to believe in the "light" he claims to be
> > shining
> > > on Reality (Truth is completely irrelevant in his campaign) - and they
> > will
> > > give him the highest power in the land if they have the chance.
> Screwtape
> > > and his team must be well pleased with him!!
> > >
> > > Ian: you asked the original question, what do you think of The
> Screwtape
> > > Letters?
> > >
> > > Sally D
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, December 9, 2015, Arthur Laurent <ALaurent at npr.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I believe in the devil and other creatures of pure evil, because I've
> > > been
> > > > in the presence of evil, and was glad when I could walk away. This is
> > not
> > > > an intellectual belief (none of my spiritual beliefs are
> intellectual),
> > > but
> > > > is based on personal experience.
> > > >
> > > > James wrote, "...Thinking one can behave their way into heaven is an
> > > > insult to the whole idea of salvation," and I agree. There is nothing
> > we
> > > > can do by ourselves that will get us into heaven. That's why we have
> > > Jesus
> > > > as our Advocate.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, some of us are going to take a lot more advocacy than
> > others.
> > > >
> > > > Arthur
> > >
> >
>