[Magdalen] Short-term prayers, please

[Lesley de Voil]

Sorry, I used 'anger' ill-advisedly. I think any communication from
you, no matter what you say, whether it be good or ill, he will only
'hear' in one way, the one that feeds his anger. It's *his* problem.
Did you really mean to say that he has the responsibility for eight
children? Maybe there's more behind that that he cannot explain
without feeling inadequate, or feeling trapped, and so the only
emotion that he is prepared to acknowledge is that of power and
control through words that wound.
Lesley

On 7/30/15, Grace Cangialosi <gracecan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Lesley. Actually, my usual way of handling this has been NOT to get
> angry, or not to react at all. I've thought that his goal was to make me
> angry enough to lash out, and so I've just listened. The short note I sent
> today was the first time I've indicated that I might not read what he had to
> say or that his behavior is hurtful. A few minutes ago another message from
> him appeared in my mailbox, and I just deleted it.
> As far as differing ideas go, he has made it very clear that it isn't OK to
> agree to disagree, because I am so clearly in the wrong. That I can handle;
> it's the personal attacks that hurt.
> Anyway, I really didn't mean to take up so much time and space with this,
> but everyone's comments have been helpful.
> Thank you!
>
> On July 29, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Lesley de Voil <lesleymdv at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's funny (i.e. quite peculiar) that I see some similarities with
> Grace's position in the current (very much more public) brouhaha going
> on Australia regarding the treatment of AFL star Adam Goode by
> opposing team fans. Goode has been subject to racist taunts for quite
> some months now, and nothing *he* does seems to satisfy them. Of the
> more or less  useful suggestions being wafted around cyberspace, the
> one that probably won't get taken is for Goode and all his team to
> simply walk off the field if the name-calling and booing continues.
> It's probably in the players' contracts that they not do just that,
> for it would upset the ability of the backers to get their money's
> worth from the game.
> The parallel that James suggests, that Grace simply refuse to react in
> any way at all to further communication from her son, seems also to me
> to be the only thing that will eventually help. I fell that the son is
> feeding off Grace's anger/indignation - it's almost as if he were
> addicted to it, so the best thing to do is to remove that stimulation
> as far as is possible.
>
> Regards to you, Grace  and prayers for you too
> Lesley de Voil
>
> On 7/30/15, James Oppenheimer-Crawford <oppenheimerjw at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I read this, and sat for a long time, just thinking, and then I went away
>> and did something else. I came back and it's still there. The PC elves
>> did
>> not answer it for me.
>>
>> I have been thinking of how you could discern what is in the post, etc.
>> and
>> of course, nothing suggested itself.
>>
>> I have found that in my counseling life, a great tool for getting through
>> to people is intentional helplessness.  Not needed to get the last word,
>> not needing to master or even understand the person, but simply to allow
>> them to be the master of the scene.   That did not in itself offer a
>> solution, but it seems to me that you have been pushed into a situation
>> where you strive to make a peaceful overture, and he then craps on that
>> and
>> escalates to something else even more angry.  In a way he has taken your
>> emotions hostage.  It really does not matter what his intentions are; I
>> think we all agree he is not always using the best judgment, and will
>> also
>> never concede that until he is on his death bed.
>>
>> You keep trying to find a way to get through to him, and he keeps
>> stopping
>> you, "Uh uh uh! That isn't going to work with me!"
>>
>> So perhaps it is time you are honest, and at the same time, "give up."
>>
>> Tell him that, based on the nasty material in his last post, you cannot
>> read anything else from him. Just say you have to protect yourself from
>> his
>> attacks, so you just are going to leave it to him to decide when he
>> wishes
>> to communicate with you. You decide not to read his posts.  However, if
>> he
>> will assure you that he is not going to write nasty material, you will be
>> happy to read what he has to say immediately.
>>
>> Very clearly label his withholding the children as essentially
>> hostage-taking (without any judgment or scolding, of course), because
>> that
>> is how it feels to you, and so that is what it is, so far as you are
>> concerned. I do not think that you gain anything by tiptoeing around his
>> hostage-taking behavior, and it just might possibly get through to him at
>> some point.
>>
>> If he withholds the children, well, that's what he does. He is running a
>> nasty little game where no matter what you say it's going to give him
>> some
>> grist to take umbrage and then he withholds the kids anyway. He's going
>> to
>> do it in any case.  You are trying to find the magic action that will
>> prevent that, and there isn't any, because he feeds off being able to use
>> his hostages to give you more pain.
>>
>> All the ideas for having somebody else read the post etc. is just
>> baloney.
>> It is just making you and your friends work and work and work, when the
>> reality is he doesn't give a hoot about righteousness or justice or
>> anything else; he just obviously wants to hurt you.  Please don't allow
>> him
>> to get to you.  You can change yourself, but you can't change another who
>> has, for God knows what reason, has chosen the evil path.  You can do
>> what
>> you can to avoid stoking the flames, and you can keep telling him your
>> door
>> is always open when he wants to be civil, but the doormat days are over.
>> You deserve respect and courtesy, and when he is willing to treat you in
>> a
>> socially acceptable manner, you're more than willing to listen.
>>
>> And somewhere in there at some point, you can tell him that you try to
>> see
>> his point of view, but he refuses to accord you the same courtesy, and
>> without some consideration and respect, there can be no relationship. You
>> have tried, but until he decides he WANTS a relationship, you give up.
>>
>> It seems to me that he is feeding off your repeated attempts to be
>> conciliatory, and I don't think you should stop that, but you also lose
>> nothing by not putting your cards on the table and calling him out.
>>
>> You have had the assumption that you never ever give up, and he seems to
>> know that and is using it against you.  So maybe it's time to give up.  I
>> have read of people who experienced a turn-around when they gave up and
>> laid the whole thing on God.
>>
>> I hope this gives you some useful ideas.
>>
>> James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
>> *“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
>> except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Grace Cangialosi <gracecan at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Without going into the very long, sad history, I'm asking your prayers
>>> for
>>> what will probably seem like something totally insignificant.
>>>
>>> Periodically my son subjects me to verbal or written diatribes,
>>> sometimes
>>> cutting me off from seeing his children, sometimes not.  They always
>>> seem
>>> to come out of left field.  This time I had responded to an article he
>>> forwarded to me, agreeing with much of it, which I thought would
>>> surprise
>>> him, and thinking it might be the opening for a real conversation.
>>> Instead,
>>> I got back a long, long attack, really hateful and verbally abusive. I
>>> read
>>> just enough to see what was there and then deleted it. Went back later
>>> and
>>> emptied it from the trash, so I wouldn't be tempted to read the whole
>>> thing
>>> and spend the next three days beating myself up and wondering what I've
>>> done wrong. (Which, of course, I've been doing anyway...)
>>>
>>>  Anyway--sorry this is so long--I carefully wrote a response, saying I
>>> was
>>> sorry that he had felt the need to respond that way, that I had deleted
>>> his
>>> message without reading most of it, because I didn't need that verbal
>>> abuse. ( I had seen that he was heading into a place I've seen
>>> before...insisting that we are all depraved and evil at heart, but my
>>> pride
>>> won't let me see that, even though Scripture is clear on that. There was
>>> something to the effect that I put on this show so that people will
>>> think I'm a good person, etc.) I stopped reading there.
>>>
>>>  I told him it saddens me that that's so much of his theology, that Paul
>>> really needs to be read through the lens of the Gospels and Jesus'
>>> reflection of God as a God of love. And also that God created the world
>>> and
>>> saw that it was good. I ended by saying that I would continue to pray
>>> that
>>> he will find that God of love and know that he is loved by God.  And
>>> after
>>> much consideration, I went ahead and signed it Love, Mom.
>>>
>>> Now I see that I have a reply from him that starts out "I hope you won't
>>> delete this before reading it...,"  but I haven't opened it yet.  I'm
>>> tempted to just write back and say that I haven't read it yet because
>>> I'm
>>> not ready to read it, but that I  haven't deleted it yet, either.  Maybe
>>> that would be the way to go?
>>>
>>> I also thought about forwarding it to my daughter without reading it and
>>> asking her to tell me whether to read it or not, but that seems the
>>> cowardly way to go.  She's aware of the situation, though I didn't share
>>> the other email with her. She pretty much keeps her distance from him
>>> most
>>> of the time. Her take is that he finds it easier to take his anger out
>>> on
>>> me than to actually deal with the things he doesn't like about himself
>>> and
>>> the choices he's made.  In my head I know that's probably true, and
>>> that's
>>> what I would say to someone else in this situation, but it's hard not to
>>> get hooked by this when it happens.
>>>
>>> Anyway, what I need is some clarity about the "right" thing to do now.
>>> Delete without reading? Tell him I still have it, but am not ready to
>>> read
>>> it yet?  Just grit my teeth and read it? What I feel when I contemplate
>>> that last alternative is fear about what I'll find...and that is, on one
>>> level, totally ridiculous, I know. Whatever is there is already there,
>>> whether I read it or not.  And it couldn't possibly be any worse than
>>> things I've already had to take from him. It's not the different ideas I
>>> have a problem with, it's the personal attacks. And I've really worked
>>> hard
>>> over the years to keep the door open to relationships with the children.
>>> There have been two different times when he barred me from seeing them
>>> for
>>> several months, but then it's like he kind of forgets, and they'll
>>> invite
>>> me to do something.  I don't know if my daughter-in-law is aware of all
>>> of
>>> this, but I've never said anything to her. She has to do exactly what he
>>> says, and I don't need to add to her worries.
>>>
>>> Sorry...I really didn't mean to go on so long. But prayers for clarity
>>> would be welcome.
>>>
>>> Grace
>>>
>>> --
>>> Grace Cangialosi
>>> Ruckersville, VA
>>>
>>> Keep Calm and Carry OM.
>>>
>>
>