[Magdalen] Drug research.

Fri Aug 26 21:03:20 UTC 2016

...on an adjacent topic there is a new book out, written by the grandson of 
a famous Doctor who worked with the mentally ill. The book turned out to be 
a far more wide ranging story and expose of the grandfather (than the 
grandson expected), who performed a surgical procedure on a young man who 
gave consent to brain surgery that was thought, at the time , to be possibly 
rehabilitative . It was not. This person was studied for the rest of his 
life because of the unique characteristics he had, post surgery, due to what 
was removed. This d doctor was also involved in many frontal  lobotomies, 
over time, from crude ones used initially into the era when this surgery was 
thought to be accomplishing positive results.

I heard the author interviewed on NPR one day when I was working in the 
studio and it was a very well done interview. During the show, one of those 
who called in was a retired psychiatrist who had studied, over a long time 
the data provided by the study of the young man as he grew up and grew old, 
and said that the information gleaned had greatly advanced the study of the 
brain.  The author had to grapple with not only info, but much before 
unheralded info about the grandfather than had actually ever seen the light 
of day.  It sounds like a sober 'read' about 'science', medicine, the power 
doctors once wielded and family secrets.

a quick google found a link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/25/books/patient-hm-recalls-the-story-of-a-surgery-that-took-a-mans-memories.html?_r=0

Lynn

website: www.ichthysdesigns.com

When I stand before God at the end of my life I would hope that I have not a 
single bit of talent left and could say, "I used everything You gave me." 
attributed to Erma Bombeck
 "Either Freedom for all or stop talking about Freedom at all" from a talk 
by Richard Rohr

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Allan Carr" <allanc25 at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 2:43 PM
To: <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Drug research.

> My mother had paranoid schizophrenia and was treated with shock 
> treatments, before thorazine was available. She hated those treatments and 
> I think they made her worse. Since she was in a mental asylum, indigent, 
> and not a US citizen, she was deported back to her home country where she 
> died of cancer a few years later. I was sixteen when she was deported and 
> living with an uncle. I never saw her again.
> I wish she had been born a few years later when thorazine was available. I 
> wanted to give the group more information about thorazine, not nitpick 
> you. You really need to get over yourself.
>
>
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 11:02 PM, James Oppenheimer-Crawford 
>> <oppenheimerjw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you, Ann, for bring the matter up.  Perhaps it would be good to say 
>> a
>> bit more.
>>
>> Disagreement is not the issue at all.  It's that the original post might
>> have something questionable in it, and this is brought up by someone 
>> else.
>>
>> A sharpshooter is one who finds some mistake in the text of another and
>> instead of pointing it out the person involved, blats it to the entire
>> list. You can almost sense the glee in their text. Of course, if
>> confronted, they just say, "I was only pointing out the facts."  I have 
>> to
>> say I am very seldom the target of these, because, having been attacked a
>> number of times, I know I have to have my facts straight. And I certainly
>> did recently, the claims of someone, based on the sterling research 
>> source
>> of Wikipedia notwithstanding. But I see it happen to others on this list
>> all the time, and it is almost never helpful. (Ahem -- in my opinion
>> anyway, it seems like it just derails the discussion for little purpose)
>>
>> It happens all the time: someone makes some point in a post, and then
>> someone else posts to the entire list that the person had some factual
>> mistake in their post.  This needless interference distracts from what 
>> the
>> other person was trying to say, and of course it lessens the likelihood
>> that that other person will speak up in the future.  Let's face it. We 
>> all
>> enjoy that rush of having the real facts.  When we can say, "Whoa! You 
>> got
>> it a bit wrong there, but I on the other hand, have the actual truth. 
>> Hey,
>> here are the URLs to prove it!" And in many cases, the matter is 
>> virtually
>> irrelevant to the discussion matter, but is a major distractor to
>> discussion.
>>
>> Certainly there are cases where the information might be potentially
>> harmful if not remedied immediately, and one might wish to bring that up
>> publicly, but that's usually not the case here.  And of course, there's 
>> the
>> matter of the person who sees something they know (or think they "know") 
>> is
>> not right, but does not wish to take the time to send a private email. If
>> they do that, there is a classy way to do it, and a not so classy way to 
>> do
>> it.
>>
>> I've been guilty of that, and I'm sorry I have. I would like to think I
>> know a little better.  I have been really trying to be a better poster, 
>> and
>> to a large extent, I think I've improved. I try to make comments off 
>> list.
>> It doesn't take that long and it's unnecessary to air our dirty laundry 
>> in
>> public -- unless our main desire IS attacking the other person, of 
>> course.
>> In some cases, I think the people involved are in a lot of pain and are 
>> not
>> having a very good life, and they feel a lot of rage, and sometimes it 
>> just
>> gets spilled out in an attack email. We are all actually doing what we 
>> can.
>> Every one of us is fighting some kind of battle.
>>
>> I don't mean to condemn folks who choose a different way of making
>> corrections, but I do wish they would think a bit more about the pall it
>> puts on the entire list whenever that happens.  For everyone who knows 
>> the
>> sender, there are a number of lurkers who are saying, "Good Lord! I will
>> NEVER  post to this list!" We know how many folks just read but never 
>> post.
>> I submit that there's a reason for that.
>>
>> The listowners can confirm or deny that our numbers grow smaller year by
>> year.
>>
>> James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
>> *“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
>> except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy
>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 7:28 PM, Ann Markle <ann.markle at aya.yale.edu> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jim, I'm not sure what you mean by "sharpshooter."  Does this mean 
>>> anyone
>>> who dares disagree with you?  I realize you've worked in mental health. 
>>> I
>>> also realize you cite one anecdotal incident, which doesn't mean 
>>> Thorazine
>>> for pregnancy was common medical practice.  We also don't know what 
>>> other
>>> kinds of symptoms this RN you knew was exhibiting, many of which might 
>>> have
>>> indicated prescription of an antipsychotic med.  Margaret, who has 
>>> worked
>>> in medicine/academia for her career, might have something informed to 
>>> say
>>> about the origins of Thorazine, as well.  My impression is that this was 
>>> a
>>> factual discussion, not "sharpshooting," whatever that is.  Sorry you
>>> experienced it as some kind of assault, but just sayin', it didn't look
>>> like that to a disinterested observer who likes you both a lot.
>>>
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> The Rev. Ann Markle
>>> Buffalo, NY
>>> ann.markle at aya.yale.edu
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 6:30 PM, James Oppenheimer-Crawford <
>>> oppenheimerjw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I saw that. It's aimed at the psychiatric angle, so it doesn't talk 
>>>> about
>>>> the other stuff.
>>>>
>>>> The point was that many medicines started out in a very different
>>> category
>>>> than that in which they became well known.
>>>>
>>>> I am really tired of sharpshooters. Not surprised, but tired.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
>>>> *“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not 
>>>> preserved,
>>>> except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 6:11 PM, Allan Carr <allanc25 at gmail.com> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpromazine
>>>>>
>>>>> In the section headed "History", it was developed as a better
>>> alternative
>>>>> to a drug used to calm surgical patients. It was quickly tested in a
>>>> mental
>>>>> hospital, with a dramatic effect on a manic patient who was discharged
>>> in
>>>>> three weeks.
>>>>> It was marketed as Thorazine, replaced such treatments as shock 
>>>>> therapy
>>>>> and psychosurgery and quickly emptied mental hospitals of patients 
>>>>> with
>>>> all
>>>>> sorts of psychoses.
>>>>> It also led to the discovery of antidepressants.
>>>>> If I recall correctly, there are 30,000 homeless living on the streets
>>> of
>>>>> Los Angeles, many of them psychotic. I'm not sure if most of them
>>> reject
>>>>> treatment with drugs like Thorazine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 17, 2016, at 2:25 PM, ME Michaud <michaudme at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thorazine was the first anti-psychotic (early 1950s)
>>>>>> but IIRC was developed with the hope that it would treat malaria.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In its rudimentary clinical trials it was found to have other
>>>> potentials.
>>>>>> -M, who remembers patients with Tardive dyskinesia
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2016, James Oppenheimer-Crawford <
>>>>>> oppenheimerjw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No.
>>> 