[Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis

[ROGER STOKES]

The ladies you mention do not rely on papal approval to rise to their representative status. Bishops do need that approval and the last two pontificates before the present one have been distinctly conservative in their views.  As has been observed, the bishops do not represent the /sensus fidelium/ so much as "Roma locuta".

Roger




________________________________
 From: Grace Cangialosi <gracecan at gmail.com>
To: "magdalen at herberthouse.org" <magdalen at herberthouse.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2014 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
 

Well, they're not the Berrigans, but the RCC does have Joan Chittister, Sr. Simone of the Nuns on the Bus movement and Elizabeth Johnson, whose theological writings keep landing her in trouble with the Vatican. Perhaps this is the season for the prophetic voices of women...

> On Nov 4, 2014, at 4:30 PM, "Lynn Ronkainen" <ichthys89 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> It interests me that in 50 years (since the settling after V2Council) the US RC has become so conservative and rule bound again... where are the Berrigans+???   Their conservatism has made them bold (in re the two bishops you cite, Jay), IMO, of course.
> 
> L
> 
> website: www.ichthysdesigns.com
> 
> When I stand before God at the end of my life I would hope that I have not a single bit of talent left and could say, "I used everything You gave me." attributed to Erma Bombeck
> 
> Thomas Merton writes, “People may spend their whole lives climbing the ladder of success only to find, once they reach the top, that the ladder is leaning against the wrong wall.”
> 
> "What you seek is seeking you." - Rumi
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Jay Weigel" <jay.weigel at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 9:15 AM
> To: <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
> Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
> 
>> The deal breaker for me would be that Francis hasn't fired some of the
>> bishops in this country who are openly defiant of him...Burke of St.
>> Louis(?) and Morlino of my home town of Madison, WI being two of the bigger
>> offenders. Burke was recently whining that he'd been "demoted" but he's
>> still running his mouth. Morlino has been one who's refused to baptize the
>> children of gay couples, in defiance of the pope.
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 7:26 AM, ROGER STOKES <roger.stokes65 at btinternet.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> The deal breaker for me were two actions by Benedict XVI.  One was the
>>> forming of the Ordinariate for former Anglicans, starting in England but
>>> then extending to other countries as well. I know some people who chose to
>>> go to the Ordinariate and some who opted to enter the normal diocesan
>>> structure, as has been possible for many years.  I respect them as they
>>> believed that was right for their continuing spiritual journey, and some of
>>> those who had been clergy are now RC priests, whether they are married or
>>> not.  It always seemed to me as if those entering the Ordinariate wanted to
>>> remain traditional Anglicans. Incidentally the number of current members of
>>> the Ordinariate is not clear - what is that they are short of money and
>>> have a remarkably high number of priests for the number of laity they have.
>>> 
>>> The other part of the deal breaker was the approval of the new "English"
>>> translation of the Missal.  I put "English" in quotes because it certainly
>>> is not English as spoken, I believe anywhere in the world. There were some
>>> deficiencies in the former translation - the Opening Prayers (Collects)
>>> being particularly short in gravitas and meaning.  A series of articles in
>>> The Tablet pointed that out, and how more uplifting translations of the
>>> Latin into good English were possible.  What is now offered is clunky and,
>>> as many will admit privately, not something that flows, taking the faithful
>>> with it as good liturgy should.
>>> 
>>> Of course you can add to that the effect of historic child abuse and how
>>> the hierarchy have sought to protect the Church's reputation, something
>>> which has contributed to most of Joan's relatives no longer being
>>> practicing Catholics.
>>> 
>>> Roger
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Sally Davies <sally.davies at gmail.com>
>>> To: "magdalen at herberthouse.org" <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2014 5:51 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Which in itself sounds like a deal breaker for ever joining the RC,
>>> regardless of where the Pontiff may be on the spectrum of conservative
>>> religious organisation.
>>> 
>>> I simply cannot understand how Christ's Representative on Earth can adopt
>>> (or be afforded) a style of leadership that is so radically at odds with
>>> Christ's own life and teaching in earthly life, and still have any
>>> credibility.
>>> 
>>> If there's anything attractive about the current Pope (and for me there is)
>>> it would be in his adoption of a more simple and Christ like approach to
>>> people, relationships and problems. I hope he's not going to order anyone
>>> to jump.
>>> 
>>> Given the pain we've been through in our own Communion, and still go
>>> through, I would not wish that on any other church. Lately I've been
>>> reading some sermons from Chris Chivers, who has interesting things to say
>>> about how we choose to be church; including the implications of our
>>> becoming preoccupied with our own self-understanding as Christians or as
>>> Church.
>>> 
>>> He says it results in a closing-in mindset which all too easily becomes
>>> closing-down - literally. One of the sermons is a meditation on a painting,
>>> "The Baptism of Christ" by Hans Feibusch, which is in the Baptistry at
>>> Chichester Cathedral. It's well worth taking the time to study this
>>> painting, which is worth several thousand words about the Church, the
>>> Kingdom, and the Great Commission:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%22The_Baptism_of_Christ%22_by_Hans_Feibusch_within_Chichester_Cathedral_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1141190.jpg
>>> 
>>> Sally D
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tuesday, 4 November 2014, ROGER STOKES <roger.stokes65 at btinternet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > What these traditionalists forget is that the Pope's power is > unfettered.
>>> > Canon Law says he can do what he likes and that he has universal
>>> > jurisdiction.  If he says "jump" the correct response is "how high?" > not
>>> > "why?" or "I don't want to".
>>> >
>>> > Roger
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ________________________________
>>> >  From: Scott Knitter <scottknitter at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
>>> > To: "Magdalen at herberthouse.org <javascript:;>" <
>>> magdalen at herberthouse.org
>>> > <javascript:;>>
>>> > Sent: Monday, November 3, 2014 2:56 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:27 AM, Roy Murphy <roy.murphy at gmail.com
>>> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> > > "It's almost as if the Catholic Church was recently baptized in a vat
>>> of
>>> > > irony: so-called traditionalists--the same people who insisted that
>>> > liberals
>>> > > fall in line behind John Paul II and Benedict XVI--are petulantly
>>> calling
>>> > > for schism and for bucking Church hierarchy. What makes it even more
>>> > > absurd: Francis isn't all that liberal."
>>> >
>>> > When the traditionalists were fluttering their eyelids each of the
>>> > many times they solemnly referred to "The Holy Father," I remember
>>> > wondering whether they would still do so for another pope who might
>>> > have a different approach. Sure enough, although they should fall in
>>> > line and show him the same deference, now it's a different story.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Scott R. Knitter
>>> > Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
>>> >