[Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis

Wed Nov 5 04:58:52 UTC 2014

One more time, and in a language understanded of the people, please.

James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
*“If you have a chance to accomplish something that will make things better
for people coming behind you, and you don’t do it, you're wasting your time
on this Earth.”  -- *Roberto Clemente

On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 10:45 PM, ROGER STOKES <roger.stokes65 at btinternet.com
> wrote:

> The ladies you mention do not rely on papal approval to rise to their
> representative status. Bishops do need that approval and the last two
> pontificates before the present one have been distinctly conservative in
> their views.  As has been observed, the bishops do not represent the
> /sensus fidelium/ so much as "Roma locuta".
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Grace Cangialosi <gracecan at gmail.com>
> To: "magdalen at herberthouse.org" <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2014 1:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
>
>
> Well, they're not the Berrigans, but the RCC does have Joan Chittister,
> Sr. Simone of the Nuns on the Bus movement and Elizabeth Johnson, whose
> theological writings keep landing her in trouble with the Vatican. Perhaps
> this is the season for the prophetic voices of women...
>
> > On Nov 4, 2014, at 4:30 PM, "Lynn Ronkainen" <ichthys89 at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > It interests me that in 50 years (since the settling after V2Council)
> the US RC has become so conservative and rule bound again... where are the
> Berrigans+???   Their conservatism has made them bold (in re the two
> bishops you cite, Jay), IMO, of course.
> >
> > L
> >
> > website: www.ichthysdesigns.com
> >
> > When I stand before God at the end of my life I would hope that I have
> not a single bit of talent left and could say, "I used everything You gave
> me." attributed to Erma Bombeck
> >
> > Thomas Merton writes, “People may spend their whole lives climbing the
> ladder of success only to find, once they reach the top, that the ladder is
> leaning against the wrong wall.”
> >
> > "What you seek is seeking you." - Rumi
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "Jay Weigel" <jay.weigel at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 9:15 AM
> > To: <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
> >
> >> The deal breaker for me would be that Francis hasn't fired some of the
> >> bishops in this country who are openly defiant of him...Burke of St.
> >> Louis(?) and Morlino of my home town of Madison, WI being two of the
> bigger
> >> offenders. Burke was recently whining that he'd been "demoted" but he's
> >> still running his mouth. Morlino has been one who's refused to baptize
> the
> >> children of gay couples, in defiance of the pope.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 7:26 AM, ROGER STOKES <
> roger.stokes65 at btinternet.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The deal breaker for me were two actions by Benedict XVI.  One was the
> >>> forming of the Ordinariate for former Anglicans, starting in England
> but
> >>> then extending to other countries as well. I know some people who
> chose to
> >>> go to the Ordinariate and some who opted to enter the normal diocesan
> >>> structure, as has been possible for many years.  I respect them as they
> >>> believed that was right for their continuing spiritual journey, and
> some of
> >>> those who had been clergy are now RC priests, whether they are married
> or
> >>> not.  It always seemed to me as if those entering the Ordinariate
> wanted to
> >>> remain traditional Anglicans. Incidentally the number of current
> members of
> >>> the Ordinariate is not clear - what is that they are short of money and
> >>> have a remarkably high number of priests for the number of laity they
> have.
> >>>
> >>> The other part of the deal breaker was the approval of the new
> "English"
> >>> translation of the Missal.  I put "English" in quotes because it
> certainly
> >>> is not English as spoken, I believe anywhere in the world. There were
> some
> >>> deficiencies in the former translation - the Opening Prayers (Collects)
> >>> being particularly short in gravitas and meaning.  A series of
> articles in
> >>> The Tablet pointed that out, and how more uplifting translations of the
> >>> Latin into good English were possible.  What is now offered is clunky
> and,
> >>> as many will admit privately, not something that flows, taking the
> faithful
> >>> with it as good liturgy should.
> >>>
> >>> Of course you can add to that the effect of historic child abuse and
> how
> >>> the hierarchy have sought to protect the Church's reputation, something
> >>> which has contributed to most of Joan's relatives no longer being
> >>> practicing Catholics.
> >>>
> >>> Roger
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Sally Davies <sally.davies at gmail.com>
> >>> To: "magdalen at herberthouse.org" <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2014 5:51 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Which in itself sounds like a deal breaker for ever joining the RC,
> >>> regardless of where the Pontiff may be on the spectrum of conservative
> >>> religious organisation.
> >>>
> >>> I simply cannot understand how Christ's Representative on Earth can
> adopt
> >>> (or be afforded) a style of leadership that is so radically at odds
> with
> >>> Christ's own life and teaching in earthly life, and still have any
> >>> credibility.
> >>>
> >>> If there's anything attractive about the current Pope (and for me
> there is)
> >>> it would be in his adoption of a more simple and Christ like approach
> to
> >>> people, relationships and problems. I hope he's not going to order
> anyone
> >>> to jump.
> >>>
> >>> Given the pain we've been through in our own Communion, and still go
> >>> through, I would not wish that on any other church. Lately I've been
> >>> reading some sermons from Chris Chivers, who has interesting things to
> say
> >>> about how we choose to be church; including the implications of our
> >>> becoming preoccupied with our own self-understanding as Christians or
> as
> >>> Church.
> >>>
> >>> He says it results in a closing-in mindset which all too easily becomes
> >>> closing-down - literally. One of the sermons is a meditation on a
> painting,
> >>> "The Baptism of Christ" by Hans Feibusch, which is in the Baptistry at
> >>> Chichester Cathedral. It's well worth taking the time to study this
> >>> painting, which is worth several thousand words about the Church, the
> >>> Kingdom, and the Great Commission:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%22The_Baptism_of_Christ%22_by_Hans_Feibusch_within_Chichester_Cathedral_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1141190.jpg
> >>>
> >>> Sally D
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tuesday, 4 November 2014, ROGER STOKES <
> roger.stokes65 at btinternet.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > What these traditionalists forget is that the Pope's power is >
> unfettered.
> >>> > Canon Law says he can do what he likes and that he has universal
> >>> > jurisdiction.  If he says "jump" the correct response is "how high?"
> > not
> >>> > "why?" or "I don't want to".
> >>> >
> >>> > Roger
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > ________________________________
> >>> >  From: Scott Knitter <scottknitter at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >>> > To: "Magdalen at herberthouse.org <javascript:;>" <
> >>> magdalen at herberthouse.org
> >>> > <javascript:;>>
> >>> > Sent: Monday, November 3, 2014 2:56 PM
> >>> > Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Conservatives Chafe Under Francis
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 1:27 AM, Roy Murphy <roy.murphy at gmail.com
> >>> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> > > "It's almost as if the Catholic Church was recently baptized in a
> vat
> >>> of
> >>> > > irony: so-called traditionalists--the same people who insisted that
> >>> > liberals
> >>> > > fall in line behind John Paul II and Benedict XVI--are petulantly
> >>> calling
> >>> > > for schism and for bucking Church hierarchy. What makes it even
> more
> >>> > > absurd: Francis isn't all that liberal."
> >>> >
> >>> > When the traditionalists were fluttering their eyelids each of the
> >>> > many times they solemnly referred to "The Holy Father," I remember
> >>> > wondering whether they would still do so for another pope who might
> >>> > have a different approach. Sure enough, although they should fall in
> >>> > line and show him the same deference, now it's a different story.
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > Scott R. Knitter
> >>> > Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
> >>> >
>