[Magdalen] Exorcism

[James Oppenheimer-Crawford]

I would not say something like "A Good God _couldn't_ do that!". I said I
can't see how that can work.  Just saying that if God just feels like being
mean --- well, your mileage may differ, but I don't think that's the God
described in the Bible.

 And I respectfully disagree. If you take the description of God in
scripture seriously, then all things are not possible with God.

If we believe that we can depend on God, then we firmly maintain that all
things are NOT possible with God.  If anything is possible, obviously you
can't depend on God. I think that's fairly obvious.

To say, "Well, God can do whatever God decides to do," sounds very pious
and good, but is it, really?  If God is good, then it follows that God will
do not evil.  I don't think we ought to say, a la Old Testament, that God
creates both good and evil and sends them on whomever he pleases.  That
just makes God a supernatural Taliban.

I also think I am encouraged to press the point a bit more because what it
looks like we are doing is trying to use these hypothetical evil entities
to say that we are not really so awful at heart; it's those evil demons
running around causing problems. Not our fault.

I'm afraid that I still have to say, if this is the case, then we have to
wrestle with the question of how a good god can create evil entities and
approve of their actions.

James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
*“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 5:25 PM, Sibyl Smirl <polycarpa3 at ckt.net> wrote:

> Thank you, Sally! This one I'm going to keep to study over and over!
>
> I'll add, apropos to the kind of theology that says "A Good God _couldn't_
> do that!" that "With God all things are possible" and "My thoughts are not
> your thoughts, nor your ways my ways".  I don't think that God uses the
> same logics as humans do.
>
>
>
> On 12/10/15 11:56 PM, Sally Davies wrote:
>
>> It tends to be simplistic and creates other questions, but I just work
>> with
>> the traditional explanation of Fall.
>>
>> If humans can become evil without help, and I think we can, then it
>> follows
>> that angels can also give up their created goodness for self-glory and
>> self-absorption. Everything else follows logically from there...since
>> angels are not subject to time and space as we are, the evil they can
>> express is of a different order, but its pattern is the same - denying
>> God's Being, and then treating other beings as objects to be used in power
>> projects.
>>
>> So "there was war in heaven" - but emphasis on WAS. They were kicked out
>> and Creation divided, at least as far as this earth is concerned. The
>> future of these created beings is not envisaged in the Bible as being a
>> happy one: that they will live with their own self-created (and
>> self-satisfied) misery, no longer being capable of "wondering love". It is
>> also likely that some humans will choose to live with them, preferring to
>> "rule in Hell" than to "serve in Heaven" (though we don't know and can't
>> know who these may be).
>>
>> In the meantime it's part of our reclaiming of Earth for the Kingdom, to
>> bind them and perhaps at times (and with one another's help and in
>> submission to one another) to battle them. I do not agree with
>> "deliverance
>> ministry" as commonly practised in some fundie churches. It is ill
>> informed, often abusive in subtle and blatant ways, and dangerous to
>> people's mental health.
>>
>> I also personally believe there are other things, traces, wrinkles in
>> time,
>> however poorly understood, which may creep us out but have nothing to do
>> with evil spirits. That funeral service for a long dead child that
>> Clarissa
>> mentioned would fall into this category for me. I would say that the
>> humans
>> involved are able to feel that previous pain and loss and they needed to
>> deal with it in their own timeline. We can feel such things, like sanctity
>> in a church, or the traces of violence and agony on a battlefield
>> (Culloden
>> for instance is not a place I would readily visit again). There are "thin
>> places" of all kinds and I don't think people imagine this.
>>
>> But regarding such things the Scriptures are largely silent. It's just
>> striking to me that in most "ghost stories" the so called spirit simply
>> repeats and repeats like those little GIFS on the internet.  Poltergeist
>> stories are also interesting - a close friend in Somerset West had one her
>> house, and dealt with it in the mannner Clarissa describes - with
>> priestly prayer and holy water - end of bangs and crashes and stuff
>> getting
>> broken.
>>
>> This house, where we live now, had a former owner who died from a
>> degenerative illness. Her husband is still alive but sold it after her
>> death...and yet it has always felt full of love and peace. She loved this
>> house so much, but we knew already that before others confirmed it or told
>> us their story.
>>
>> What a mysterious Universe we are inheriting!
>>
>> Sally D
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, December 11, 2015, Lesley de Voil <lesleymdv at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I am probably not going to do him justice, but John Hick, philosopher
>>> thinks of evil as the complete absence of love. It's human nature to
>>> reify
>>> this absence  as a thing or a person, but that  is only our way of
>>> explaining "it."
>>> Regards
>>> Lesley de Voil
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "James Oppenheimer-Crawford" <oppenheimerjw at gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent: ‎11/‎12/‎2015 12:05
>>> To: "Magdalen at herberthouse.org <javascript:;>" <
>>> magdalen at herberthouse.org
>>> <javascript:;>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Exorcism
>>>
>>> It is not a simple matter, I am sure.  After all, there are a few serious
>>> accounts of people who have reports that sound like there must surely be
>>> some kind of malevolent presence there.
>>>
>>> I don't discount those stories, but when I consider the theology of such
>>> a
>>> thing, it makes me unsure of it all, since it seems incomprehensible that
>>> the God I have learned to worship in this faith would ever (could ever)
>>> create such terrible things.  Whatever they are, they too are God's
>>> creatures, unless someone is suggesting that there are a pantheon of
>>> Gods,
>>> or which ours is not the only one. I think the Gnostics believed that
>>> there
>>> are other deities.
>>>
>>> I am drawn to the conclusion that even if there were more than one God
>>> (and
>>> I could not imagine how that could be, but I digress), it seems one must
>>> be
>>> the primary God.  If so, then we still fold back to that question, how
>>> could god create malevolent spirits or entities?  The evil one is not
>>> consistently portrayed; he just kind of shows up as a literary device at
>>> times, and when he does show up, he appears to look and act the part of
>>> whatever device is needed at that moment in that particular story. And he
>>> doesn't really show up very often in any case.
>>>
>>> I won't say I even disagree with reports of malevolent spirits, but the
>>> theology doesn't seem to show how this can "work" if we believe in a God
>>> who is love, justice and mercy. It seems to me that belief in such things
>>> might constitute disrespecting God's goodness, if we assume God creates
>>> evil entities whose purpose is evil to the core.
>>>
>>> So, as another literary device once put it, "Is a puzzlement!"
>>>
>>> James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
>>> *“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
>>> except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Clarissa Canning <canplum at gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I had a conversation about exorcism with a former Canadian Bishop.  He
>>>>
>>> said
>>>
>>>> it is a ministry one really has to contemplate to do.  He had someone
>>>>
>>> come
>>>
>>>> asking to do something in a trailer home. The little boy was being
>>>>
>>> bothered
>>>
>>>> by an uncomfortable spirit.  He said always take a witness. They prayed
>>>> thru the home using Holy water & read out a funeral service for a child
>>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>> their child's room.  Things went back to normal after this.  (It was
>>>> told
>>>> to them that a child had died in the home under bad circumstances
>>>> previously.)
>>>>     The other story was an exorcism for a man. He took amother priest
>>>> as a
>>>> witness.  he called out the demons. when they reacted  they felt it and
>>>>
>>> had
>>>
>>>> to keep praying at times it was stronger like wrestling.  They evil
>>>>
>>> spirits
>>>
>>>> left. after a few hours.   He said they hoped not to do this ministry
>>>> too
>>>> often it is disconcerting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 10, 2015 2:24 AM, "James Oppenheimer-Crawford" <
>>>> oppenheimerjw at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, I have certainly experienced real palpable evil.  Some people are
>>>>>
>>>> so
>>>>
>>>>> far gone beyond the act of merely failing to weigh choices correctly
>>>>>
>>>> that
>>>
>>>> one senses almost a visceral dread of the stuff these people come up
>>>>>
>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>>> Yes indeed, we are capable of incredible depths of depravity all by
>>>>> ourselves.  We don't need help going there, sad to say.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
>>>>> *“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not
>>>>>
>>>> preserved,
>>>
>>>> except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 7:57 AM, Sally Davies <sally.davies at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>> <javascript:;>>
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Me too, Arthur.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's also interesting that in my environment of Africa, few people
>>>>>>
>>>>> inside
>>>>
>>>>> the churches or even outside them are inclined to question the
>>>>>> independent existence of evil and of evil entities. It doesn't sit
>>>>>> comfortably with rationality but in this part of the world the
>>>>>>
>>>>> supernatural
>>>>>
>>>>>> and the natural are not separated to the same extent as in the
>>>>>>
>>>>> "rational"
>>>>
>>>>> West.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't understand it, but there again I don't understand most of
>>>>>>
>>>>> Reality
>>>>
>>>>> and that's OK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My main problem with all of this is not so much philosophy or
>>>>>>
>>>>> theodicy
>>>
>>>> but
>>>>>
>>>>>> psychology. I'm a devotee and servant of the human brain in all its
>>>>>> miraculous strangeness, including its ability to connect with other
>>>>>>
>>>>> brains
>>>>>
>>>>>> in ways that aren't obvious to the five senses or easily explained.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It so aggravating when phenomena that are much more elegantly
>>>>>>
>>>>> explained
>>>
>>>> by
>>>>>
>>>>>> recourse to these lesser known psycho-social competencies and
>>>>>> vulnerabilities, are ascribed to either God or the Devil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't mean to imply that this leaves us with a "Satan of the gaps".
>>>>>>
>>>>> To
>>>>
>>>>> my
>>>>>
>>>>>> mind, one of Satan's cleverest tricks is to get us searching for
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hannibal
>>>>
>>>>> Lector when someone like Donald Trump is a much more worthy
>>>>>>
>>>>> candidate.
>>>
>>>> He's
>>>>>
>>>>>> convinced a lot of people to believe in the "light" he claims to be
>>>>>>
>>>>> shining
>>>>>
>>>>>> on Reality (Truth is completely irrelevant in his campaign) - and
>>>>>>
>>>>> they
>>>
>>>> will
>>>>>
>>>>>> give him the highest power in the land if they have the chance.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Screwtape
>>>>
>>>>> and his team must be well pleased with him!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ian: you asked the original question, what do you think of The
>>>>>>
>>>>> Screwtape
>>>>
>>>>> Letters?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sally D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 9, 2015, Arthur Laurent <ALaurent at npr.org
>>>>>>
>>>>> <javascript:;>>
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe in the devil and other creatures of pure evil, because
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've
>>>
>>>> been
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in the presence of evil, and was glad when I could walk away. This
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>
>>>> not
>>>>>
>>>>>> an intellectual belief (none of my spiritual beliefs are
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> intellectual),
>>>>
>>>>> but
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is based on personal experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> James wrote, "...Thinking one can behave their way into heaven is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> an
>>>
>>>> insult to the whole idea of salvation," and I agree. There is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> nothing
>>>
>>>> we
>>>>>
>>>>>> can do by ourselves that will get us into heaven. That's why we
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> have
>>>
>>>> Jesus
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as our Advocate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, some of us are going to take a lot more advocacy than
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> others.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arthur
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Sibyl Smirl
> I will take no bull from your house!  Psalms 50:9a
> mailto:polycarpa3 at ckt.net
>