[Magdalen] Epiphany

[Lynn Ronkainen]

Perhaps Paul was a love-smitten zealot.... and passionate.
Lynn 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 9, 2015, at 10:11 AM, Jay Weigel <jay.weigel at gmail.com> wrote:

Ann, I think you got a little unnecessarily defensive to a remark which
wasn't meant to be hypercritical. However, I do think you should step back
from your theological study experience and consider that of the average Joe
and Jane in the pew and their experience with Paul. Most of them haven't
had the benefit of much study, and how Paul is presented is often pretty
counter-productive..."He says this, and that's that." MUCH cherry-picking
goes on, and often, as with some of the OT passages that get brought up to
justify certain behaviors and viewpoints, Paul's sterner viewpoints get
emphasized, to the detriment of the better and more important stuff. This
is a major fault in much of evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity.

Now I am not and never will be an unabashed fan of Paul. I like much of the
writing but not all. It was kind of a relief to me to learn that Paul
probably didn't write all of Paul. I suspect he was not an easy guy to get
along with. I like the epistles in general but not all of them. However, I
don't see them as co-equal to the gospels, but as I said, regard them more
as commentary, similar to Talmud. That doesn't make them any less valuable,
as any Jew who studies Talmud would tell you.

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:26 AM, Sally Davies <sally.davies at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I read Ann's comment as a spectrum thing, meaning that it's not an 'either
> you understand or you don't'. There are different ways to understand Paul -
> and I've been through a few shades on the spectrum. There are always things
> I feel I understand more now, and things I still don't understand and
> probably never will. And yes, things I don't like and probably never will.
> 
> One book that really changed my perspective was "The Gospel According to
> Paul" by Robin Griffith-Jones. I don't read a lot of scholarship and
> generall feel rather ignorant of the various controversies, but this book
> was an eye opener.
> 
> Even if it could be shown that Paul definitely wrote the passages which
> have been so painfully used and abused against women's dignity and
> equality, I would still revere him for the one or two stunningly beautiful
> and profound passages to which I return again and again. When he wrote
> "there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free", he could
> have been describing himself - a beautiful, wild, confusing, frustrating
> mix of all those characteristics.
> 
> For instance, his words on love, and his word-picture of the Cosmic Christ
> "the image of the invisible God", as well as the lovely doxologies which I
> daresay were in common usage in the early church but have been saved and
> preserved for us by Paul.
> 
> I also love the way he never gave up in his own life, struggling to
> understand more and to love more - despite coming from what seems like a
> very legalistic, judgemental and unloving background. When his authentic
> personal voice is speaking from the page, it's always fresh, raw and so
> real it could be happening right now, somewhere in the world. In fact, it
> probably is.
> 
> I guess that in life he wasn't easy to get along with; a number of great
> teachers seem to have outright fallen out with him or at least concluded to
> go their separate ways. And he's still not easy to get along with now. But
> so, so worth it.
> 
> Sally D
> 
> 
> 
>> On Friday, 9 January 2015, Grace Cangialosi <gracecan at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Ann, I apologize for misreading your earlier post. I didn't realize you
>> were just responding to Jay, and I took your comment to indicate that
> folks
>> who aren't fond of Paul only feel that way because they don't understand
>> him...as more enlightened people do. And I heard that as rather
>> condescending.
>> Grace
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2015, at 2:06 PM, Ann Markle <ann.markle at aya.yale.edu
>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Grace, it's obvious that mileage does vary on this list - about Paul
> and
>>> everything else!  But anyone who doesn't understand might grow in
> wisdom
>> by
>>> trying to understand. - and Jay said clearly she DIDN'T understand (why
>>> Paul got into the canon of scripture).  I always learned (from very
> wise
>>> teachers) that it's better to wrestle with scripture and try to better
>>> understand, than categorically dismiss.  And of course, it's ok to
>> disagree
>>> with parts of scripture -- I certainly do, even parts of Paul, and so
>> does
>>> every single person I know, lay or ordained.  I think Jay and I are
>> simply
>>> having a disagreement about Paul, into which you felt it necessary to
>>> insert your opinion and take me to task.  Of course, that's allowed,
> too,
>>> as differing opinions are what make pub conversation interesting.  It's
>>> when it gets personal by attributing personal characteristics, moods
> and
>>> motivations (Ann Markle is snarky, condescending) that it gets to be
> time
>>> to bow out of the conversation and let others have the last word.
> Sorry
>> I
>>> spoke up with a differing opinion - I guess I should have known better.
>>> 
>>> Ann
>>> 
>>> The Rev. Ann Markle
>>> Buffalo, NY
>>> ann.markle at aya.yale.edu <javascript:;>
>>> blog:  www.onewildandpreciouslife.typepad.com
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Grace Cangialosi <gracecan at gmail.com
>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, that's what I thought, too, Ann. Your remark felt very
>> condescending
>>>> to me. There are many things about Paul's writings that are wonderful,
>> and
>>>> there are other things that I find offensive. I believe it's possible
> to
>>>> understand something and still not like it.  Obviously YMMV.
>>>> Grace
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 8, 2015, at 1:33 PM, Jay Weigel <jay.weigel at gmail.com
>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bit o' snark there, don'tcha think?
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Ann Markle <ann.markle at aya.yale.edu
>> <javascript:;>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Feel bad for folks who don't understand Paul.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Staunch feminist,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ann
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Rev. Ann Markle
>>>>>> Buffalo, NY
>>>>>> ann.markle at aya.yale.edu <javascript:;>
>>>>>> blog:  www.onewildandpreciouslife.typepad.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:06 PM, M J [Mike] Logsdon <
> mjl at ix.netcom.com
>> <javascript:;>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I sometimes wonder how some, if not almost all, of Paul got into
>> the
>>>>>>> canon.
>>>>>>> But that's me.<<<
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Lee Hays of the Weavers once said that whenever Paul came into a
> town
>>>> he
>>>>>>> instantly set sex back 20 years.
>>>> 
>> 
>