[Magdalen] More Clergy DWI

Tue Mar 17 17:51:51 UTC 2015

Maybe that tendency works in general.  I have not enough experience with a
lot of parishes over a large area.  I do recall a tiny church in
Pittsburgh, hardly more than a single room, that was the refuge before
Dignity and Integrity for gay Episcopalians.  It was high church.

In Poughkeepsie the main TEC is Christ Church. In the 19th cent., they
built St. Paul's so that their servants could have a parish to worship
where they would be comfortable and out of the way.  When I came to Pok in
the mid-seventies, there was still veiled hostility between the two
parishes.  St. Paul's has always been the poorer parish, although today
both are money poor.  Happily today they get along, although neither would
ever think of merging.

Christ Church is capable if it takes a mind to, of being pretty high
church, despite its low church traditions, but St. Paul's is certainly the
consistently high church. Both parishes today are mixed race parishes,
although St. Paul's congregation on any given Sunday is generally a very
strong majority of people of Color.  I suppose the mixed race aspect would
put both parishes into a rare category; I don't know.

James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
*“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:38 AM, <sally.davies at gmail.com> wrote:

> Similar story here. The parishes that minister to and are located in the
> poor areas are much more likely to be "high church" than those that
> minister in upper class areas. They're the ones who throw out the Prayer
> Book, bring in the bands and aspire to be Baptists or Pentecostals under
> the banner of "renewal".
>
> A parish that is Anglo-Catholic, has plenty of resources, AND has a liberal
> outlook theologically is rare
>
> Sally D
> On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 at 09:35 Cantor03--- via Magdalen <
> magdalen at herberthouse.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 3/16/2015 9:58:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > raewynne1 at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > Note, I  didn't write the stuff about Republicans - that was from  David
> > Strang.  Google just made it seem that  way...
> >
> > Raewynne
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Jim Guthrie  <jguthrie at pipeline.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > raewynne1 at gmail.com  writes:
> > >
> > >  The socioeconomic makeup of USA Episcopalians  has changed
> > >> through the years.  It used to be that  Episcopalians were "the
> > Republican
> > >> Party at prayer", but  there has been a big swing in the liberal
> > direction
> > >> in  recent decades.  As a result, a lot of the wealthy conservatives
> > have
> > >> packed up and gone elsewhere.  Those who remain are a  notch down
> > >> the socioeconomic ladder.
> > >>
> > >
> > >  Mostly nonsense. Ask the old-timers (if any are left) about the
> > >  Republicans who led the "Republican Party at Prayer" at St James, for
> > >  example. All were liberal Rockefeller/liberal Republicans, as were
> many
> > > others in TEC.  Huntington, Barrett, Miller to name a few  who were
> still
> > > around in my time --- but you can go back long before  that, too. They
> > were
> > > all big fans of Jacob Javits and Ken Keating in  my day -- both
> > Republican
> > > liberals.>>>>
> > You seem to be documenting that these Episcopal Republicans USED
> > to do a lot of charity, but it's questionable whether ANY of them are
> > left.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > You can go back a long time and find the same was  true everywhere --
> J.
> > P.
> > > Morgan was a Republican, for example, but in  addition to building
> > hospitals
> > > and the like, as Warden of St George's  in NYC, made sure there were
> > liberal
> > > -- even radical -- Rectors  installed.
> > >
> > > There are, to be sure, conservatives who've left --  but I'm sure that
> if
> > > you, say, look at the situation in South  Carolina, you'll find that
> most
> > of
> > > those who've left in favor of the  schismatics were once Democrats --
> as
> > > were conservatives  throughout the South. Republicans there were the
> > party
> > > of  African-Americans and Liberals back in the day. And just because
> > there
> > >  were well-meaning efforts to integrate parishes, we, essentially,
> > kicked
> > > the people of color out of  TEC>>>>
> > Well of course most Southerners of all stripes were originally
> Democrats,
> > and this includes the schismatics in SC.
> >
> > To interject something from another note:
> >
> > Incidentally, the Oxford Movement was, indeed, an attempt to recover  for
> > Anglicans the catholic spirituality and secondarily the richness of
> > worship
> > forms, but intrinsic to the smells and bells was the insistence that
> these
> > changes in worship would include a ministry to the poor.  In  fact, most
> of
> > the
> > pioneer Anglocatholic parishes were purposely located in poor
> > neighborhoods.
> > That the modern manifestation of the Oxford Movement has, in some
> > instances
> > forgotten this association is unfortunate.
> >
> > Yet, places like Saint Mary the Virgin in NYC do have a substantial
> > outreach
> > to the poor and homeless of the Times Square area, so it isn't all
> dressing
> >  up
> > and good music.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > In short, the "Republican Party at Prayer" has no  relationship to
> > today's
> > > Republicans.>>>
> > That was my point!
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Jim  Guthrie
> > >
> > >
> >
>