[Magdalen] More Clergy DWI

[Jim Handsfield]

A very honest post, Allan.  Thank you. 

Jim Handsfield
Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 20, 2015, at 9:15 PM, Allan Carr <allanc25 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I got drunk more than a few times in my first marriage, feeling totally
> incapable of dealing with someone so manic depressive as to sometimes be
> psychotic. I tried quite a few help groups but they couldn't repair my
> increasing depression until the last of these was run by a psychologist who
> suggested a separation which finally led to a divorce. After that, I still
> liked a drink or two after work, but did not have any need to get drunk. A
> decade after that divorce, my first wife committed suicide.
> I never joined AA in those years and don't think it would have helped.
> Although I was a Unitarian most of those years, the sentences in the AA
> pledge, or whatever it is, about higher powers and a need to turn myself
> over to them was and still are really repulsive to me personally.
> I do think I am addicted to my couple of drinks a day and sometimes worry
> about them, although my doctors say its ok. If I get too worried, I'll try
> the naltrexone approach, which seems to work well in the Nordic countries,
> Finland, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, which don't have our highly
> puritanical needs.
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Jay Weigel <jay.weigel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> The articles questioning the effectiveness are largely focusing on the
>> people who don't want to be there in the first place, or who aren't ready
>> for treatment, or who wouldn't benefit from anything BUT forced inpatient
>> treatment (and maybe not even that!). You can add IMNSHO to that if you
>> wish, but that's my takeaway. One of those was my late ex, who always
>> thought he was "smarter than that" anyway. Sad but true.
>> 
>>> On Friday, March 20, 2015, Susan Hagen <susanvhagen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> No, it blocks the positive effects of alcohol or opiates rather than
>>> causing negative effects, reducing cravings.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Grace Cangialosi <gracecan at gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Is that the drug formerly marketed as Antabuse?  Some alcoholics in the
>>>> past drank anyway, thinking the resulting nausea and vomiting were a
>>> small
>>>> price to pay.
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Susan Hagen <susanvhagen at gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I'm finding this conversation especially interesting since I've
>>> recently
>>>>> seen two articles questioning the effectiveness of AA.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> http://aeon.co/magazine/health/the-aa-is-out-of-step-with-research-on-addiction/
>>>>> 
>>>>> I wonder whether more people would be willing to at least try
>> treatment
>>>>> aimed at moderating their drinking and harm reduction rather than (at
>>>> least
>>>>> initially) committing to a complete, lifelong abstinence.  Is anyone
>>>>> familial with the naltrexone treament described?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Susan
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 10:26 AM, Lynn Ronkainen <
>> houstonklr at gmail.com
>>> <javascript:;>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jim G - I did not realize that your stake in this conversation was
>>>> based
>>>>>> on court ordered , or otherwise  mandated AA.  I have no experience
>>>> with
>>>>>> that and so my remarks on 12 step groups are based solely on 'the
>>>>> program'
>>>>>> helping people who want to be there and their experiences,
>> sometimes
>>>>>> successful, sometimes not.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Any* court ordered recovery program is only as effective as the
>>>> person's
>>>>>> desire to change their behavior, IMO. And that goes from mandated
>>>>>> 'programs' to prison.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My email has changed to: houstonKLR at gmail.com <javascript:;>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> website: www.ichthysdesigns.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When I stand before God at the end of my life I would hope that I
>>> have
>>>>> not
>>>>>> a single bit of talent left and could say, "I used everything You
>>> gave
>>>>> me."
>>>>>> attributed to Erma Bombeck
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> From: "Jim Guthrie" <jguthrie at pipeline.com <javascript:;>>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 5:43 AM
>>>>>> To: <magdalen at herberthouse.org <javascript:;>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Magdalen] More Clergy DWI
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If something *works* for one person in 1,000, it is a success for
>>> that
>>>>> 1.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Not if the other 999 have been "sentenced" to AA and go out and
>> get
>>>>> drunk
>>>>>>> and it results in fatalities. Or even one . . .
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Courts need to supervise, and professionals need to be assigned. I
>>>> would
>>>>>>> say that AA is probably good for people who join voluntarily and
>>>> without
>>>>>>> criminally-related matters due to their alcohol addiction, but it
>>> may
>>>>> well
>>>>>>> be an utter disaster for those assigned to it from the court
>> system.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I also suspect that given America's reliance on the automobile,
>>> judges
>>>>>>> tend to be lenient in DWI cases, where they wouldn't think twice
>>>> about a
>>>>>>> long prison sentence v an NA group for illegal drug use.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Before enlightenment pay bills, do laundry.  After enlightenment pay
>>>> bills,
>>>>> do laundry.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Grace Cangialosi
>>>> Ruckersville, VA
>>>> 
>>>> It's a good thing Mary didn't have to wait for a Doctrine of the
>>>> Incarnation
>>>> before she said "Yes" to God.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Before enlightenment pay bills, do laundry.  After enlightenment pay
>> bills,
>>> do laundry.
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Allan Carr