[Magdalen] Drug research.

[Allan Carr]

My mother had paranoid schizophrenia and was treated with shock treatments, before thorazine was available. She hated those treatments and I think they made her worse. Since she was in a mental asylum, indigent, and not a US citizen, she was deported back to her home country where she died of cancer a few years later. I was sixteen when she was deported and living with an uncle. I never saw her again.
I wish she had been born a few years later when thorazine was available. I wanted to give the group more information about thorazine, not nitpick you. You really need to get over yourself.


> On Aug 24, 2016, at 11:02 PM, James Oppenheimer-Crawford <oppenheimerjw at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thank you, Ann, for bring the matter up.  Perhaps it would be good to say a
> bit more.
> 
> Disagreement is not the issue at all.  It's that the original post might
> have something questionable in it, and this is brought up by someone else.
> 
> A sharpshooter is one who finds some mistake in the text of another and
> instead of pointing it out the person involved, blats it to the entire
> list. You can almost sense the glee in their text. Of course, if
> confronted, they just say, "I was only pointing out the facts."  I have to
> say I am very seldom the target of these, because, having been attacked a
> number of times, I know I have to have my facts straight. And I certainly
> did recently, the claims of someone, based on the sterling research source
> of Wikipedia notwithstanding. But I see it happen to others on this list
> all the time, and it is almost never helpful. (Ahem -- in my opinion
> anyway, it seems like it just derails the discussion for little purpose)
> 
> It happens all the time: someone makes some point in a post, and then
> someone else posts to the entire list that the person had some factual
> mistake in their post.  This needless interference distracts from what the
> other person was trying to say, and of course it lessens the likelihood
> that that other person will speak up in the future.  Let's face it. We all
> enjoy that rush of having the real facts.  When we can say, "Whoa! You got
> it a bit wrong there, but I on the other hand, have the actual truth. Hey,
> here are the URLs to prove it!" And in many cases, the matter is virtually
> irrelevant to the discussion matter, but is a major distractor to
> discussion.
> 
> Certainly there are cases where the information might be potentially
> harmful if not remedied immediately, and one might wish to bring that up
> publicly, but that's usually not the case here.  And of course, there's the
> matter of the person who sees something they know (or think they "know") is
> not right, but does not wish to take the time to send a private email. If
> they do that, there is a classy way to do it, and a not so classy way to do
> it.
> 
> I've been guilty of that, and I'm sorry I have. I would like to think I
> know a little better.  I have been really trying to be a better poster, and
> to a large extent, I think I've improved. I try to make comments off list.
> It doesn't take that long and it's unnecessary to air our dirty laundry in
> public -- unless our main desire IS attacking the other person, of course.
> In some cases, I think the people involved are in a lot of pain and are not
> having a very good life, and they feel a lot of rage, and sometimes it just
> gets spilled out in an attack email. We are all actually doing what we can.
> Every one of us is fighting some kind of battle.
> 
> I don't mean to condemn folks who choose a different way of making
> corrections, but I do wish they would think a bit more about the pall it
> puts on the entire list whenever that happens.  For everyone who knows the
> sender, there are a number of lurkers who are saying, "Good Lord! I will
> NEVER  post to this list!" We know how many folks just read but never post.
> I submit that there's a reason for that.
> 
> The listowners can confirm or deny that our numbers grow smaller year by
> year.
> 
> James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
> *“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
> except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy
> 
>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 7:28 PM, Ann Markle <ann.markle at aya.yale.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> Jim, I'm not sure what you mean by "sharpshooter."  Does this mean anyone
>> who dares disagree with you?  I realize you've worked in mental health.  I
>> also realize you cite one anecdotal incident, which doesn't mean Thorazine
>> for pregnancy was common medical practice.  We also don't know what other
>> kinds of symptoms this RN you knew was exhibiting, many of which might have
>> indicated prescription of an antipsychotic med.  Margaret, who has worked
>> in medicine/academia for her career, might have something informed to say
>> about the origins of Thorazine, as well.  My impression is that this was a
>> factual discussion, not "sharpshooting," whatever that is.  Sorry you
>> experienced it as some kind of assault, but just sayin', it didn't look
>> like that to a disinterested observer who likes you both a lot.
>> 
>> Ann
>> 
>> The Rev. Ann Markle
>> Buffalo, NY
>> ann.markle at aya.yale.edu
>> 
>> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 6:30 PM, James Oppenheimer-Crawford <
>> oppenheimerjw at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I saw that. It's aimed at the psychiatric angle, so it doesn't talk about
>>> the other stuff.
>>> 
>>> The point was that many medicines started out in a very different
>> category
>>> than that in which they became well known.
>>> 
>>> I am really tired of sharpshooters. Not surprised, but tired.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
>>> *“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
>>> except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 6:11 PM, Allan Carr <allanc25 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpromazine
>>>> 
>>>> In the section headed "History", it was developed as a better
>> alternative
>>>> to a drug used to calm surgical patients. It was quickly tested in a
>>> mental
>>>> hospital, with a dramatic effect on a manic patient who was discharged
>> in
>>>> three weeks.
>>>> It was marketed as Thorazine, replaced such treatments as shock therapy
>>>> and psychosurgery and quickly emptied mental hospitals of patients with
>>> all
>>>> sorts of psychoses.
>>>> It also led to the discovery of antidepressants.
>>>> If I recall correctly, there are 30,000 homeless living on the streets
>> of
>>>> Los Angeles, many of them psychotic. I'm not sure if most of them
>> reject
>>>> treatment with drugs like Thorazine.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 17, 2016, at 2:25 PM, ME Michaud <michaudme at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thorazine was the first anti-psychotic (early 1950s)
>>>>> but IIRC was developed with the hope that it would treat malaria.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In its rudimentary clinical trials it was found to have other
>>> potentials.
>>>>> -M, who remembers patients with Tardive dyskinesia
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2016, James Oppenheimer-Crawford <
>>>>> oppenheimerjw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> No.
>>