[Magdalen] Alfie Evans has died

[Molly Wolf]

Enough.  

Molly
Unsubscribing

The man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -- Mark Twain

> On May 3, 2018, at 12:24 AM, James Oppenheimer-Crawford <oppenheimerjw at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Intriguing. As I read of another case, the scenario you describe being
> impossible is what happened.
> 
> That is one reason why they call it the practice of medicine, and why
> medical people are just asking for truly lousy PR is they stand in the way
> of parents making one last ditch attempt.
> 
> You say the brain has turned into liquid, but if that were true, none of
> the involuntary responses would be present either. But they are, meaning,
> no, the brain's not turned into liquid, but maybe so far as some methods of
> scanning it appears so.  We know of people functioning normally with no
> brain visible except for a small amount in the peripheries.
> And besides, even if your assertion were absolutely certain, if the parents
> want to try to do some other desperate action at their own expense, it
> seems to me terribly arrogant to stop them. What harm can it do?
> 
> I'm intrigued at how you are able to discern the thought processes of
> administrators. I have no doubt that if evidence shows this to be fairly
> reliable, agencies like NSA will be very interested....
> 
> James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
> *“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
> except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy
> 
>> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:07 AM, Molly Wolf <lupa at kos.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I doubt if anyone ever got his brain back after it turned into fluid.  I
>> know brains are incredibly good at coping, but Alfie’s condition was
>> incompatible with life.  Period. Remember, he had been deteriorating for
>> more than a year.
>> 
>> What really bothers me is that people like Gingrich are using this tragedy
>> — and ignoring pretty much ALL the facts — to inflame opposition to
>> single-payer health insurance.  Alfie got superb care at one of the best
>> pediatric hospitals in the world, without regard to his parents’ finances.
>> Would that have happened in the U.S.?  And the child’s interests were
>> defended by his own legal representative.
>> 
>> Nobody — ESPECIALLY his medical caregivers — wanted Alfie to die.  There
>> was no arrogant brutality, only grief and compassion.  He just couldn’t be
>> saved, not by Italian doctors, not by anyone.
>> 
>> Molly
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no
>> other way. -- Mark Twain
>> 
>>> On May 2, 2018, at 11:56 PM, James Oppenheimer-Crawford <
>> oppenheimerjw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I would not say that this is what was happening, but the powers that were
>>> in this matter had stated very firmly that the illness was incurable. Now
>>> assume that they then are nice enough to allow the parents to take the
>> kid
>>> to someone else and also imagine that the kid is somehow cured.  The
>> powers
>>> that were would have been a laughing stock. Or at least, that's possibly
>>> the way they looked at it.
>>> 
>>> Every once in a while, there's a spontaneous remission from incurable
>>> disease. If that happened to this child, you and I would stand up and
>> give
>>> the Glory, but for these powers, it would be a horrible, horrible thing.
>>> 
>>> I'm not saying this was their rationale, and of course one wants to be
>> able
>>> to assume that all physicians are honest and honorable, but then....
>>> 
>>> James W. Oppenheimer-Crawford
>>> *“A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved,
>>> except in memory. LLAP**”  -- *Leonard Nimoy
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 7:42 PM, Jay Weigel <jay.weigel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Alfie Evans has died.
>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/alfie-evans-sick-british-
>>>> toddler-at-center-of-legal-battle-dies/
>>>> 
>>>> I don't know how many of you have been following this case, but I have,
>> and
>>>> I have real mixed feelings, both as a nurse and as a mother. One of the
>>>> feelings I have is one of anger, of "Whose child is this anyway?" ISTM
>> that
>>>> in this case, as in another one I'll get to in a bit, that the state
>>>> overreached itself and took possession of the child for itself,
>> completely
>>>> cutting off any rights of the parents at all. The parents had beef
>> fighting
>>>> for months to take Alfie, who suffered from a degenerative brain
>> disorder
>>>> so rare that it didn't even have a name, to Vatican City for
>> experimental
>>>> treatment (more likely, for evaluation before such treatment, but
>>>> whatever....) but British courts ruled that they could not do so because
>>>> the doctors treating him in Liverpool said "further treatment was
>> futile".
>>>> This just seems like overreach to me. The parents' campaign was backed
>> by
>>>> the pope and Christian groups, which helped draw international
>> attention to
>>>> the case. The hospital withdrew Alfie's life support Monday after a
>> series
>>>> of court rulings sided with the doctors and blocked further medical
>>>> treatment. Alfie died at 2:30 am this morning Liverpool time.
>>>> 
>>>> As a mother and a grandmother, I am furious. I can hardly put into words
>>>> how angry this makes me. Surely the parents of such a child have the
>> right
>>>> to try something else, especially if the NHS isn't paying for it, which
>>>> apparently they were not being asked to. Even if the doctors in Vatican
>>>> City shook their heads and said "There's nothing we can do either," and
>>>> recommended comfort care, they would have known they tried. But this
>>>> attitude of "the child belongs to the hospital first and then to the
>> state
>>>> and the parents have no say" just pisses me off. (Sorry for the
>> language.)
>>>> If the little guy had been abused, I would feel different. I've seen
>> that,
>>>> and that's a whole other ball game. But Alfie's parents obviously loved
>> him
>>>> dearly and only wanted the best for him and they have felt for some time
>>>> that they were NOT being listened to...and perhaps they weren't. After
>> all,
>>>> they are quite young. Dad is 21 and Mom is no older.
>>>> 
>>>> As a nurse, I understand about futile treatment, certainly, but there is
>>>> also something here about medical arrogance. I've seen that too. Plenty
>> of
>>>> it during my active career, especially in intensive care. It appears, at
>>>> least in the news stories, that there's a good bit of that at play also.
>>>> 
>>>> I mentioned another case, one that ME will undoubtedly remember and may
>>>> have some different opinions about, but it also involved a teenage
>> patient
>>>> who was basically "taken over" by a hospital, some doctors, and a judge
>> who
>>>> was, IIRC, found to be corrupt in such cases. For over a year her
>> parents
>>>> were not allowed to see her, her own doctor was not allowed to see her,
>> and
>>>> the hospital treated her as a psychiatric patient rather than a medical
>>>> one. It was pretty much a horror story. I stumbled on it quite by
>> accident,
>>>> and would likely not have heard about it otherwise, because the father
>> took
>>>> a direction in publicizing it that I never follow. Had he gone to other
>>>> than extreme right-wing media (Glenn Beck, etc.) his case would probably
>>>> have been heard, and the case of Justina Pellettier would be much better
>>>> known. However, even with his tack in that direction, my sympathies were
>>>> with the parents and definitely not with the hospital. Boston Children's
>>>> got a pretty black eye over that one, as well it should have.
>>>> 
>> 
>>