[Magdalen] Images and words about Mary

Fri Jan 29 20:59:51 UTC 2016

Mary's virginal state was perhaps more important during that era (of several 
centuries at least) when virgins gave birth to some mythic and 'real' 
figures.... the virginity gave their  the status of their offspring  huge 
credence.  Probably heresy to think that the church polished up the 
virgin-status to add to Jesus' importance probably after the Constantinean 
'take over'.  Just sayin'.

Mary's 'undefiled' born-without-sin state was conferred by a Pope in the 
19Century I believe. (yup)

(google search commenced)  the Pope made the declaration on December 8, 
1854. The essential definition was:

""We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the 
Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular 
privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus 
Christ, the Savior of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of 
original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and 
constantly be believed by all the faithful.[34]

               George Tavard has commented on the definition:

The positive point of the definition links the Immaculate Conception of Mary 
to the merits of Christ that would have been applied to her by anticipation 
or retroactively. The Son's merits flowed back upon the mother, not in the 
irreversible temporality of history but in the sovereign mind of God the 
Creator who makes all creatures what they are. This perspective derives from 
John Duns Scotus's remarkable insight. What was, with John Duns Scotus, a 
hypothesis that contradicted the theology of all his predecessors, is 
introduced in the Catholic faith...It is the Creator, and not the conditions 
of the world or the sinful behavior of ancestors, that gives being to each 
creature. A parallel is thus implied between the virginal conception of 
Jesus and the immaculate conception of Mary.[35]""

read more.... waaaaay more @ 
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/kimmac.html

Actually some very interesting stuff at the beginning. The Pope info is only 
a few paragraphs  in as well.

Lynn

website: www.ichthysdesigns.com

When I stand before God at the end of my life I would hope that I have not a 
single bit of talent left and could say, "I used everything You gave me." 
attributed to Erma Bombeck
 "Either Freedom for all or stop talking about Freedom at all" from a talk 
by Richard Rohr

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Eleanor Braun" <eleanor.braun at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 12:54 PM
To: "Magdalen" <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
Subject: Re: [Magdalen] Images and words about Mary

> I'm with you, Sally.  I love the Magnificat, but I see putting Mary on the
> pedestal of "unstained" or "undefiled" as part of the whole package that
> keeps women apart and lesser.
>
> And theologically, I don't get how Jesus can be fully human if his mother
> is something different than the rest of us.
>
> Eleanor
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Sally Davies <sally.davies at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Fascinating - thanks Ian. This site has prompted me to download Tumblr
>> which looks like a good thing to have...
>>
>> I have SUCH mixed feelings. At a purely emotional level I love "Our Lady"
>> far more than a Protestant should (and in Southern Africa the Anglican
>> church is firmly in the protestant tradition). The love I have for her is
>> simple and trusting, as the Mother of the church and one of the treasures
>> bequeathed to us by Jesus as he died, through the "beloved disciple".
>>
>> But there are aspects, brought out by some of these contributors, that
>> annoy me so much I can scarcely stand to look at them. Such as, the world
>> of misogyny and anti-humanism implicit in notions such as "unstained", or
>> "undefiled". YECHH!!
>>
>> What the heck does any of that mean? If Mary was "unstained by original
>> sin" then who was that person who fully identified with her people in the
>> joyous explosion of the Magnificat? Not a perfect woman, just a very 
>> young
>> human who gave her whole heart to the purposes of God.
>>
>> Why do we allow a very dubious doctrine ("original sin") to subvert
>> everything like this?
>>
>> And it gets worse - it's clear from some posts that "undefiled" means 
>> that
>> Mary never had sex. Now I don't take a position on that either way,
>> considering it her private business, but I cannot go along with any
>> discourse implying that being sexual somehow "defiles" a woman (it's
>> unlikely to be a man in that context).
>>
>> Bah. Sorry to rant, but it's because I AM so fascinated by all this that 
>> I
>> end up biting off more than I can chew.
>>
>> What say you, pub friends?
>>
>> Sally D
>>
>> On Friday, 29 January 2016, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall at gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Friends
>> >
>> > Our Church is hosting a friendly Facebook Group called 'Mary, images,
>> words
>> > and music' simply for people of *any* Christian tradtion *(or none)* to
>> > share images or verse or prose about Mary.
>> >
>> > It doesn't assume a particular stance on devotion to Mary ...
>> >
>> > Please feel free to join if you're on Facebook. You'd be very welcome.
>> >
>> > <goog_1806472691>
>> > https://www.facebook.com/groups/986129021426449/
>> >
>> > Ian
>> >
>> > *Ian Gomersall*
>> >
>> 