[Magdalen] TEC talk

Simon Kershaw simon at kershaw.org.uk
Tue Oct 22 15:23:38 UTC 2019

I think I broadly agree with this recent post, Ferdinand. We are not 
dealing with something which is clear cut.

That said, the point of departure was the number of entities that might 
have regarded each other as sister churches when the PECUSA was created 
in the 1790s. You excluded the Church of Ireland from that, writing
>> the Church of Ireland as
>> a separate church only came into being with disestablishment in 1869

I think that the CofI had separate existence, and as primary evidence I 
will repost the start of Article V of the Acts of Union 1800:

"the Churches of England and Ireland, as now by Law established, be 
united into one Protestant Episcopal Church"

So, prima facie, there was (before 1801) a Church of Ireland, legally 
separate from the Church of England, established by law, and both 
protestant and episcopal. If that were not so, then the article makes no 

I think the use of the term "protestant episcopal" in the Acts might 
also suggest that the use of the term by the PECUSA does not necessarily 
derive from the Scottish consecration of its first bishop, but that this 
was a more generally used description of the nature of the English and 
related churches. Granted that the Acts post-date the creation of the 
PECUSA, so it is not conclusive evidence, merely suggestive. It's not 
totally inconceivable that the derivation is in the opposite order. The 
Scottish influence on the eucharistic liturgy of the young American 
church is another matter, well-documented, and not disputed by me.


On 2019-10-21 18:16, Ferdinand von Prondzynski (Emeritus) wrote:
> That's very interesting as ever, Simon - but it's actually quite
> doubtful whether the pre-1800 church was Anglican in any real sense.
> Denominational lines were quite blurred at the time, and several C of
> I bishops tried to make common cause with RCs. I don't think the
> Church of Ireland was what one might call an Anglican church until
> 1869. Where it saw itself as clearly separate from Roman Catholicism
> it was mote independently Protestant than Anglican. Those bishops
> loyal to the Protestant Crown would have seen themselves as not
> separate from the C of E in any significant way. In other words, this
> was a sort of pre-denominational phase, with major variations between
> different parts of the country.
> Ferdinand
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magdalen
> <magdalen-bounces+f.von-prondzynski=rgu.ac.uk at herberthouse.org> on
> behalf of Simon Kershaw <simon at kershaw.org.uk>
> Reply to: "magdalen at herberthouse.org" <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
> Date: Monday, 21 October 2019 at 15:57
> To: "magdalen at herberthouse.org" <magdalen at herberthouse.org>
> Subject: Re: [Magdalen] TEC talk
> I'm not sure you are quite right about that, Ferdinand :-)
> The Church of Ireland was indeed disestablished and disendowed under 
> the
> terms of the Irish Church Act 1869, and which came into effect on 1
> January 1871).
> And prior to that, there had been a United Church of England and
> Ireland.
> But that United Church had been created by Article V of the Acts of
> Union 1800. Before that the Church of England and the Church of Ireland
> had been separate sister churches.
> So when Samuel Seabury was consecrated in 1784, and the first General
> Convention of the PECUSA took place in 1785, it became the fourth
> national church of what is now the Anglican Communion, as it was only
> some 11 or 12 years later that the England and Ireland were united as a
> single church.
> simon
> On 2019-10-21 15:29, Ferdinand von Prondzynski (Emeritus) wrote:
>> Simon wrote:
>> > Actually it was the fourth entity, after the Church of England, the
>>> Church of Ireland and the Scottish Episcopal Church.
>> Hm, one argues with Simon at one's peril, but the Church of Ireland as
>> a separate church only came into being with disestablishment in 1869.

>> So when Sam Seabury was consecrated Scotland created the third
>> entity... The Church of Ireland in due course was the fourth.

Simon Kershaw
simon at kershaw.org.uk
St Ives, Cambridgeshire

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